Talk:Azerbaijanis

Suggesting a change on history category.

I’m suggesting a change and almost a total rewrite of the history category. When you read the history category you quickly realise this isn’t talking about the history of the Azerbaijanis but the history of the land of modern day Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan already has its own Wikipedia page where the history of the land is mentioned so also mentioning it in this page which is talking about the Azerbaijani ethnicity is wrong because the Turks of Azerbaijan didn’t enter the area until the 700-1000s. For example example mentioning the atabegs of Azerbaijan, Seljuks, the qizilbash and the role of Azerbaijanis in the Safavid, afsharid, and qajar empires would make much more sense then mentioning what people lived in the lands before, this is after all a Wikipedia page about the Azerbaijanis. Altynordu (talk) 14:02, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

For the record, Altynordu has been indefinitely blocked as WP:NOTHERE. Aintabli (talk) 22:32, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Infobox and WP:UNDUE?

I believe @Beshogur and @Wikaviani can discuss the matter here. I guess the main argument of Beshogur is that the infobox can give undue weight to minority opinions, when separately mentioned. A middleway I can come up with is to revise how the sources are presented there so that there is no undue attention given. Aintabli (talk) 22:24, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "undue weight" here, please read the WP:UNDUE WEIGHT carefully, i quote from it :

"If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;

If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;

If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all."

here we have a viewpoint held by not only a significant minority but also by prominent experts of this topic.

In addition to Arakelova, let me quote Rasmus Christian Elling (another prominent expert of this topic) : "The number of Azeris in Iran is heavily disputed. In 2005, Amanolahi estimated all Turkic-speaking communities in Iran to number no more than 9 million. CIA and Library of congress estimates range from 16 to 24 percent—that is, 12–18 million people if we employ the latest total figure for Iran's population (77.8 million). Azeri ethnicsts, on the other hand, argue that overall number is much higher, even as much as 50 percent or more of the total population. Such inflated estimates may have influenced some Western scholars who suggest that up to 30 percent (that is, some 23 million today) Iranians are Azeris" thus, this viewpoint is all but held by an extremely small minority (like people supporting flat Earth for example, as said in our guideline). Content is well-sourced and should be restored as per WP:NPOV. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:45, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I am not going to dive into the discussion, but I have restored the figure in the infobox as I did not realize it was removed several months ago. Aintabli (talk) 00:26, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

In 2005, Iran's population was 70 million, and 82 million in 2015. Claiming they're 6 million in 2020 is a fringe view, and does not match other views, thus it is undue. I'd rather take CIA world factbook than Yerevan state university professor. Beshogur (talk) 10:53, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Is that your sole argument ? seriously ? Iran had a population of 70 million in 2005 and 84 million in 2020, an increase of 20%, so there are 7,2 millions Azeris in Iran in 2020, so what ? that makes sources like Arakelova or Elling "fringe view" ? come on. As to the CIA, the Elling source is from it.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 16:54, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

All those listed sources are more than decade old and they give a number above 10 million. Which makes Arakelova's numbers fringe. Beshogur (talk) 00:58, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Arakelova is not the only reliable source that gives lower figures, Elling gives comparable figures too, anyway, it's a reliable source and it has to remain in the article as per WP:NPOV.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Am I missing the other sources giving lower figures? Beshogur (talk) 11:37, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

As i said above, Elling gives a figure lower than 9 million (in 2005) for all Turkic speakers of Iran so Azerbaijanis alone would be lesser than 8 million in 2005, with a 20% increase, that would mean that there are about 9,5 million (maximum) today.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:51, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

8 million is over 11% in 2005. Arakelova's 2020 numbers equals to 7% of 2020 Iranian population, which is mathematically impossible. Beshogur (talk) 15:10, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, Arakelova's estimate represents between 7 and 8% of the current Iranian population, while Elling's 9,5 millions estimate is around 11%, wow, what a big deal, both are well below the other fanciful estimates (some Azerbaijanis ethnicists claim over 50% of Iranian population ...).---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:17, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

No you're showing the lowest estimates. Even Elling's 9,5 millions estimate is around 11% is 3-4% further from Arakelova. While most sources claim +- 20%. Beshogur (talk) 20:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Don't know what you're talking about, you asked me the other source with comparable figures with that of Arakelova, that source is Elling and 3 - 4 % difference is not a big deal, given that there is no official census for the ethnic groups of Iran. In Addition to that, Arakelova is the most recent source of the list, many of the others are at least 10 years old, they should probably be removed as they are almost oudated for such a topic.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 10:20, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I am saying Elling's 3-4% difference is closest what we have to Arakelova. That's now even remotely close, plus that's the lowest we have. many of the others are at least 10 years old, they should probably be removed as they are almost oudated for such a topic Just because Yerevan State University professor says so, we should not remove a source because it is 10 years old. These sources are 10 years old, yet mentions double the Yerevan State University professor's numbers. Beshogur (talk) 14:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Because Arakelova is Yerevan state University professor that source should be removed ? I'm sorry, but i'm not enclined to accept that. As i said, there are no official census for ethnic groups living in Iran, thus, sources give many estimates, they should be cited in order to keep a neutral point od view. Yet, Arakelova's estimate is not so far away that of Elling.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:57, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

This discussion does not appear to be getting anywhere as both parties are not nearing any consensus. But I believe Wikaviani makes a good point about sources' age. In order to solve the disagreement, we can instead use sources from the last 5 years in the infobox, so that the question isn't about Arakelova and older sources. Arakelova is already cited throughout the article, so the infobox is not the only place it is found in, and its total removal is a completely different issue that should be separately discussed. Several sources from the last 5 years I found, about 15 million (2021), 16 million (2021), 18 million (2022), over 18 million (2020), almost 20 million (2020), about 20 million (2022), over 20 million (2021). What are both of your opinions on this? Aintabli (talk) 19:18, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Previously, I mentioned my concerns about her bias. You can check her personal vk.com account. But I want this being removed because it does not match other numbers, I don't care about Yerevan State University, whatsoever. Beshogur (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I would go with Aintabili's proposal, old sources removed, Arakelova's figure kept in, more recent sources added instead of the old ones. I don't read Russian and i don't trust Russian sites either, thus, i don't care about vk.com.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 09:00, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

My proposal involves the removal of Arakelova's figure (which is from 2015) from the infobox as only sources from the last 5 years will be used (hence, partially solving the disagreement), but the figure and her opinions will stay within the article. Would you still agree? Aintabli (talk) 15:48, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't get well why we should chose that threshold of "5 years", i mentioned above the 10+ years old sources. Also, Arakelova is cited in the Iranian Azerbaijanis article.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

This was a compromise I thought could be acceptable to both of you. Beshogur wants Arakelova to be wholly removed, but it merits an independent discussion, and the particular locus of the dispute was the infobox. And you've pointed out the age of the other sources. The purpose here is to address both of your points. (I'm underlining that this doesn't involve the total removal of Arakelova.) Choosing sources from the last 5 years isn't particularly different from using 10 years as the threshold. Aintabli (talk) 15:18, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't find Arakelova's numbers to be compelling. And the range of 6 to 23 million is impossible. Most sources provide the numbers of around 15-20 million. For example, Britannica provides the figure of 15 million for Iranian Azerbaijanis at the turn of 21st century, and that number is dated. [1] It should certainly rise in the last 20 years. You can see even from the infobox how many sources provide higher estimates against a single low estimate by Arakelova. It is better to stick to the range that the majority of sources provide. Grandmaster 17:04, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Britannica is not a reliable source, you should know that better than me since you have been editing here for about 18 years. A far better source than Britannica (Elling/Amanolahi) estimated all Turkic-speaking communities in Iran to number no more than 9 million (in 2005) that would mean that the number of Azerbaijanis in Iran was barely half of what Britannica says while that figure was given 5 years after the turn of 21st century ... I'm sorry, but the fact that Beshogur doesn't want Arakelova's source is not enough for me, that source is one of the best sources we have for this topic and should be cited, just like in the Iranian Azerbaijanis' article for the figures of that ethnic group in Iran. You guys are only making some original research based on weaker sources, like Britannica or others.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:01, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Could you address my comment above? Aintabli (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Please read what i said, i addressed it : " I'm sorry, but the fact that Beshogur doesn't want Arakelova's source is not enough for me, that source is one of the best sources we have for this topic and should be cited, just like in the Iranian Azerbaijanis' article for the figures of that ethnic group in Iran." The purpose here is not to address both of our points, rather, it is to improve the article. I find it rather deterring to have to discuss for days and days an edit as basic as adding a reliable source just because some editors don't like it. The article is more neutral and well-balanced with this source than without it.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:25, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you should also read each editors' comments carefully, because I have not raised the same points as Beshogur. I have not even participated in this discussion until a few days ago and instead came up with a suggestion to solve the dispute, but you're now grouping people together, which is not ideal. Aintabli (talk) 19:44, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I was talking about Beshogur and Grandmaster, not you. I know you and i know that you were not editing here in the same way than the 2 others. This discussion is going nowhere, maybe a RfC could help us to solve this issue.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:52, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 November 2024

Add Azerbaijani diaspora to map to infobox.

182.216.56.195 (talk) 10:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Azerbaijani population

What are the estimates for the population of Azeri Turks? Vofa (talk) 14:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you genuinely believe Arakelova's estimates are true? 6 million Azerbaijanis in Iran? A country with 90 millions people. Which makes Azerbaijanis 6.5% of Iranian population. This source shouldn't even be here normally but stays because it's a "RS" according to some. Previously I have shown Arakelova's bias against Azerbaijan with her personal social media also a Yerevan State University professor. I wonder if someone would take some professor from Baku State University serious regarding something about Armenia. Plus her numbers can be considered a fringe theory since it doesn't even match the closest lowest numbers. Beshogur (talk) 15:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

No need to get into WP:Forum-like discussions here. You can ask these questions in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard, or Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. Arakelova's source seem to talk about people who speak Azerbaijani language, not ethnic Azerbaijanis necessarily. So it might be WP:OR to include it here.

Arakelova is also WP:Primary. There seems to be lots of assumptions on her paper, see page 281 in the paper [2] Bogazicili (talk) 15:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It's basically unreliable as I pointed out, yet it stays here for some reason. Beshogur (talk) 15:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the bigger issue is that it is WP:Primary and may be WP:UNDUE. I'd recommend Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. Based on discussion there you can keep or remove the source. Bogazicili (talk) 15:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you open a topic? I can add my comment and add involved users regarding this source (here and Iranian Azerbaijanis talk pages). Beshogur (talk) 16:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Attacking a source and assuming that 6.5% of the population is small (according to you) you’re basically attacking a source and are trying to remove. This is beyond problematic. It takes two or more to edit war, there are different estimates and they should stay up. Do not attack sources please Vofa (talk) 11:39, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

We’re not discussing the validity of a source, I don’t think it’s up to us. Let’s always bring up the central point which is that if mean numbers of Azerbaijani populations and Arakelova’s estimates are correct, the number would come down to 15 million. Vofa (talk) 11:46, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Once again, I don’t know if it’s accurate or not, that’s why I put it as 15-35 million (lowest to highest estimate) and you guys seem to have a problem with it. Vofa (talk) 11:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

What are you even talking about? What bias, where? Why are you asking me if I believe in the source? If anything, you seem biased. Apparently you’re not allowed to include estimates that say anything below 35 million with a sloppy date of 2002. Stop attacking Arakelova’s source! Vofa (talk) 04:58, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

You guys totally twisted it. You’ve failed to bring up the main point and went in for the source. You also talked about Iranian Azeris page which shouldn’t even been in this discussion. Vofa (talk) 05:00, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 December 2024

Providing further information of Azerbaijanis residing outside of the Republic of Azerbaijan, adding the numbers as well as references to support the claim. Nuritae331 (talk) 15:24, 25 December 2024 (UTC)